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A sign of the times #21819
04/05/09 02:04 PM
04/05/09 02:04 PM
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Kansas
psmith Offline OP
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Re: A sign of the times [Re: psmith] #21820
04/12/09 12:05 PM
04/12/09 12:05 PM
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Thanks for the link. It seems wer'e on a path now with no turning back.


Cathy "I like photographs that look like paintings."
Re: A sign of the times [Re: BIRDPOND] #21821
04/12/09 12:56 PM
04/12/09 12:56 PM
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What path?


David Ramey Photography
Re: A sign of the times [Re: DavidRamey] #21822
04/12/09 01:32 PM
04/12/09 01:32 PM
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Sorry if I offended

:- (


Cathy "I like photographs that look like paintings."
Re: A sign of the times [Re: BIRDPOND] #21823
04/12/09 01:38 PM
04/12/09 01:38 PM
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You didn't offend me. I just get sick of everything going wrong in the world contributed to global warming. Every since Al Gore's movie came out, it has been getting colder in Alaska and the Arctic ice pack has been freezing up a month earlier than normal. I just read a book about the capture of Geronimo and the temperatures they report in Arizona 120 years ago are hotter than they are today.


David Ramey Photography
Re: A sign of the times [Re: DavidRamey] #21824
04/12/09 02:34 PM
04/12/09 02:34 PM
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David, I'm HONESTLY asking this, not trying to be inflammatory. I do love to sincerely research both sides of any issue. Is there a good link or book you can recommend?

What's causing Polar Bears to starve and come into conflict with Kodiaks as they move inland searching for food while their ice sheets/hunting grounds retreat? (We've all seen those images on TV but they may be out of context?)

The Eskimos are also having to give up their traditional ice-fishing and hunting areas, supposedly due to ice melt and thinning. What is actually going on that the reports may not have shared with us? (Believe me I know the media can distort anything it wants to.)

What is really causing these ice shelves to deteriorate, if in fact they are?

The earth does have cycles but humans also cause harm. What is confusing here is knowing where each one ends and the other begins.

My friend at the museum tells me we SHOULD be heading into another Ice Age but that Man's activities are slowing or stopping this natural cycle. It is an astronomy and research center, they get the global satelite images we see, as well as readings from volcanos etc., and all the correspondence from scientists around the world. So that is what I hear and have been basing my concerns on, but that may just be one side of the equation.

Where can I read about other causes and explanations from sources you trust? (Or personal observation, in your case, living in the heart of it all!)


Last edited by BIRDPOND; 04/12/09 02:41 PM.

Cathy "I like photographs that look like paintings."
Re: A sign of the times [Re: BIRDPOND] #21825
04/12/09 03:58 PM
04/12/09 03:58 PM
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Quote:

David, I'm HONESTLY asking this, not trying to be inflammatory. I do love to sincerely research both sides of any issue. Is there a good link or book you can recommend?




I will look for some links and post them. Read "Along the Border with Crook". It is about the capture of Geronimo written by the people who were there at the time. It has daily temperature readings of Arizona in the 1870 to 1880's. They are higher than what Arizona has today. Go to the weather bureau and look up weather records. You will find that most of the higher temperatures were in the 1920's and 1930's during the dust bowl era. Those temperatures were higher then than what we have today.

Quote:

What's causing Polar Bears to starve and come into conflict with Kodiaks as they move inland searching for food while their ice sheets/hunting grounds retreat? (We've all seen those images on TV but they may be out of context?)




When the marine mammal act was passed in 1972, there were 9000 Polar Bears. Today there are 25,000 Polar Bears. Where are they starving? Polar Bears are a 1000 miles north of Kodiak bears and they do not meet. Polar bears eat a lot of Marine Mammals off the ice shelf. They always come inland after Whale season to feed on Whale Carcassas. They have done this for hundreds of years. The "drowned" Polar Bear that a photographer photographed that supposedly drowned due to not being able to swim far enough across the arctic ocean, was in fact drowned by a Walrus. When a Polar Bear hunts, he swims under the water and then comes to the surface when he sees a shadow of prey on the ice pack. He jumps up out of the water to capture his prey. If it is a Walrus, the Walrus turns over pinning the bear between the Walrus tusks and then dives into the water drowning the Polar Bear. Polar Bears are found from The west coast of Alaska to the arctic ocean. Brown bears are found in southwestern Alaska and the south central coastal alaska to southeastern alaska. Grizzly bears are found in the interior of alaska. Kodiak bears are a sub species of brown bear and are found ONLY on Kodiak Island.

Quote:

The Eskimos are also having to give up their traditional ice-fishing and hunting areas, supposedly due to ice melt and thinning. What is actually going on that the reports may not have shared with us? (Believe me I know the media can distort anything it wants to.)




The Eskimos traditional fishing (not ice fishing) and hunting is being legislated away by the US congress, the US Fish & Wildlife and the international whaling commission.

Quote:

What is really causing these ice shelves to deteriorate, if in fact they are?




age, weight, friction from moving on a gravel bottom, summer heat.... ice (as a glacier) is always moving. As it moves along the ground, it creates friction which produces heat, which causes melting of the glacier from the bottom. This is why all land glaciers have a stream flowing out from under them. This causes stress which causes cracks (crevaces) and breaking of the ice. We have ice bridges breaking up in the winter at -40F and that is NOT caused by warm weather. The ice that broke in Antarctica broke during their summer (our winter).

Quote:

The earth does have cycles but humans also cause harm. What is confusing here is knowing where each one ends and the other begins.




This is the current politaical myth. Humans due cause some minor harm, but it is grossly blown out of proportion. I just whitnessed the melting of an entire glacier within a 24 hour period of time with the Mt Redoubt eruption. What you will NEVER hear on the news is in 1989-1990 eruption, Mt Redoubt melted that same glacier during that eruption. Now you have to ask yourself if we have such global warming, how was it possible for Mt Redoubt to rebuild the drift glacier in a 20 year period of time?

The political reality of global warming is taxes. You keep hearing how they want to tax carbon dioxide (CO2). Every living thing either breaths in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide or as with plants breaths in carbon dioxide and exhales oxygen. Governments never gives up a tax once it is able to collect it. Look at the excise tax on your telephone. LBJ enacted that tax to pay for the Vietnam War and it was going to be eliminated once the war was over. Well, 35 years later, we still have that tax. Lets say that we allow a tax on CO2 and industry figures out a way to produce things without emitting CO2. Think the government will eliminate that tax? We would then have a defacto tax on breathing. CO2 emissions was legislated into industry by the EPA standard on automobiles. EPA was started in 1962 to clean up the air. The automobile was targeted as the polluter. The EPA targeted hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen and carbon monoxide. In 1963 we had our first air polution device installed on cars (PVC valve). Through the years, the cars have gotten to the point that they produce 99.99% less polution but the target cities still have as bad pollution as they had in 1962. In 1962 you could by a Corvair that got 30 miles to the gallon and it cost $2000.00. Now you can buy an HHR that gets 30 miles to the gallon that costs $20,000.00. Where has the EPA fixed anything? The government never fixes anything, just makes things worse. When the EPA mandated the use of catalytic converters on cars, that started producing CO2 as a byproduct instead of CO.

We are appraching Earth Day. Look up the history of Earth Day. In 1972, the focus on Earth Day was how to keep from going into the next ice age because of the "greenhouse" gasses. Now we are focusing on how to stop global warming because of "greenhouse" gasses.

The fact is they are looking for a solution that doesn't have a problem.

If you want to discuss this any further, please e-mail me or call me on the telephone [907-262-5642) as this gets very political and this is not the forum for this discussion.

I appolgize to the moderators for getting into this discussion here, but just wanted to try to answer a legitamate question.





Quote:

My friend at the museum tells me we SHOULD be heading into another Ice Age but that Man's activities are slowing or stopping this natural cycle. It is an astronomy and research center, they get the global satelite images we see, as well as readings from volcanos etc., and all the correspondence from scientists around the world. So that is what I hear and have been basing my concerns on, but that may just be one side of the equation.

Where can I read about other causes and explanations from sources you trust? (Or personal observation, in your case, living in the heart of it all!)






e-mail me or call me to discuss this any further.


David Ramey Photography
Re: A sign of the times [Re: DavidRamey] #21826
04/12/09 04:24 PM
04/12/09 04:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Atlanta GA
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Yes and apologies here as well. Thanks for your answers David and I will write you a little later. I'm very glad to the opportunity to learn as much as I can.

Last edited by BIRDPOND; 04/12/09 04:24 PM.

Cathy "I like photographs that look like paintings."
Re: A sign of the times [Re: BIRDPOND] #21827
04/12/09 11:53 PM
04/12/09 11:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Kansas
psmith Offline OP
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Kansas
David, with all due respect you have thrown out a political response to the article which contains a defense of polluting the Earth. You are entitled to your opinion, and to be honest, I hope that you are right. I hope that we are not really messing up the only place we have to live for us and the generations to come .

So we can bet that you are right, and we can avoid any CO2 taxes or pollution restraints, and we can avoid a tax. If we lose the bet then we destroy the Earth.

Or we can bet that you are wrong, and we try to clean up after ourselves and be good stewards of the resources we have been blessed with. If we win that bet we save the Earth, and if we lose that bet then we have to pay some extra taxes but we will all be able to breathe a little better.

I like the odds and payoff of the second bet better.

The article I linked to was about Antartica. While the stats on Arizona are interesting, the ice all melted there a long time ago.

I miss the point about the polar bears and the Marine Mammal Act. I thought that was about not harvesting Polar Bears. Don't hunt them from helicopters or use certain inhumane traps and weapons on them. We sort of did to polar bears what we did to the buffalo herds. I think it is a good thing that we will no longer allow ourselves to kill them all for fur and sport.

Humans cause minor harm. Well, I hope we can agree to disagree about this. I don't think its okay to extinquish whole species of animals. I think the elephants, tigers, and panda bears would agree with me. Spend a few weeks in Lenfen, China. Or, save your lungs and watch a documentary: http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=1711762029 If one watches this film and still wants to argue this is a good thing, then OK...we will have to agree to disagree.

The 1962 Corvair purchased for $2,000 would cost $14,052 today simply adjusted for inflaction

http://www.coinnews.net/tools/cpi-inflation-calculator/

Todays HHR includes at least $6,000 worth of extras in my opinion. For instance, the Corvair is arguably "Unsafe at Any Speed", whereas the HHR has a few extra features like:

Dual Stage Front Airbags,
Head curtain side impact airbags,
Seatbelts,
Electronic Traction Control,
Stabilitrack Stability control system
a 5 star safety rating
a 4 star rollover rating
a steering wheel that will not impale you in a light crash

and

air conditioning
cruise control
an anti theft system
a rear window defogger
one year of OnStar
a six speaker sound system
XM Radio

Well...I'll take the clean air, and I'd prefer the $20,000 HHR over the $14,000 Corvair.

NOTE: The Corvair did get a bad rap from Ralph Nadar's book in the first chapter, it was probably about as safe as many of the other cars of the time.

Back to Antartica, the temperature change does not appear to be 'normal'

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs17-02/fs017-02.html

Last edited by psmith; 04/12/09 11:58 PM.
Re: A sign of the times [Re: psmith] #21828
04/13/09 12:31 AM
04/13/09 12:31 AM
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DavidRamey Offline
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The point of the Polar Bears is as follows. In 1972 they were placed on the Marine Mammal Protection act so that only Alaskan Natives could hunt them. In 1972 there were 9000 Polar Bears. Now , today there are 25,000 Polar Bears and we just put them on the endangered species act so they don't go extinct with the melting of the Polar Ice cap up here. Now an increase of 16,000 Polar Bears to me doesn't mean they are endangered. The melting of the Polar Ice cap is NOT happening. I know. I live up here and see it. My neighbors work on the North Slope and see the ice cap. It is not melting, but in fact is freezing up about a month earlier than it has in the past. Our summers are the coldest we have had in the past 30 years. There is not global warming in Alaska and since it is not warming here, then it can't be GLOBAL but maybe regional. A good way to show you that we don't have global warming in Alaska is to look at the volcano that is erupting here. Two weeks ago, it MELTED the entire Drift Glacier because of the volume of steam and ash that was being emitted. Now that in itself doesn't say much about global warming. What you have to realize is that Mt. Redoubt erupted in 1989-1990 over a 4 month period of time and melted the Drift Glacier back then. If we have "global warming", then how was that glacier rebuilt in a 20 year period? We are coming up on "Earth Day" to "save the earth from global warming because of Greenhouse gasses". Look up the history of "Earth Day". In 1972 we had "Earth Day" to save the planet from the next ice age caused by .... greenhouse gasses. We can't even predict the weather with any kind of accuarcey, how do we expect to save the planet when everything the government has ever tried to fix it makes worse?

Lets say that you are right and I am wrong and there is global warming. For us to fix the problem we would have to learn to control the weather so that we can reverse the damage that is being done. You say that you would be willing to pay the carbon monoxide tax. Just what would this accomplish besides making you poorer and the government richer? Do they know how to control the weather? If they do and with all the resources the government already has, why do they need that tax? If they do know how to control the weather, why don't they just do it? We can't even accuartely predict the weather. So what makes you think the government would be able to control the weather to fix this problem? Besides controlling the weather, we would also need to learn how to avert natural disasers to keep the hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes and volcano eruptions from warming the earth. My point is this, if you are right and I am wrong, then there is absolutely nothing we can do to change the course we are on. So why worry about it, just enjoy what time we have here on earth. If I am right and you are wrong, then we still get to enjoy life we have on earth and so do our children, grandchildren and so on.

I will not comment any more about this on this forum because it is not the place for it to be debated.

Last edited by DavidRamey; 04/13/09 01:29 AM.

David Ramey Photography
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