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Re: When is photography not photography?
[Re: Jim Garvie]
#31064
09/07/10 03:18 PM
09/07/10 03:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
Attila Kegyes
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
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Quote:
"... I'm curious, you are a carpenter by trade: do you still use hand drills instead of electric ones; do you still use hand saws instead of table saws, ..."
Excelent point! But the carpentry is my job not my art! So what about painters? They still use brush to paint as Leonardo da Vinchi and all the great artist used before! Off corse today's brushes and paint is much better but the painters still grab them by hand and paibt the picture. So the basic conception isn't changed!
There are woodworkers who are an artist and yes they still use lot of hand tools not powertools. But as I said, painters use modern brus too, so carpenter can use power tools too, but who do it as an art not use computer controlled machines, as used in a factory!
I never said we can't use modern cameras or even digital cameras for artwork! Even if you use the most advenced modern top of the line digital camera, still you need photography skill to get the right exposure for example. But if you don't have the skill and you just trust yourself to the camera matrix metering and then fix the mistakes in PS, you not need the photography skill! So its not about the tool waht you use to capture the inage, it is the computer which replace the skill of photography!
It is not about hand tools or power tools in carpentry, it is about there is anything what replace the skill what need for it?
If a wood carving artist use Dremel rotari tool instead of chisel and hammer, still not replace the skill and clever hands what need for the job. But if he use CNC Router machine which is a computer controlled "carving device", actually all the handwork is made by computer not by hand! From this moment the artist job is nothing else just push the start button! He make the design in a clever, and easy to use computer softwear, and that is it! Anyone can do it! Anyone can push the start button, but not anyone can lead the tool even if it is a power tool to the rigth way!
So in a photography the manipulation softwears take the neccesary skill away from the process, that is why I say that is cheating.
A modern photo equipment not replace the photography skill, the modern power tools not replace the carpentry or wood carving skill, the moder paint and brushes not replace the skill, but the computer does!
That is the whole idea of a computer!
Ansel Adams used only spot metering, because that is the only one what a skillful photographer can use to controll the darkness of the photo.
Matrix metering use computer calculations, and instead of the photographer the metering try to figure out what is front of the camera, what can be the best exposure value! Not the photographer control the darkness/brigthness of the picture, the matrix metering does! That is why many photographer who use matrix metering still need some PS adjusting. The Centerwighted metering is a same unrealible metering.
So if some one use matrix metering, that shows, me the guy have no idea how to meausr the lights, how to determine the exposure value. That is why trust him/herself to the camera computer, but because that is can't be correct all the time, need a computer manipulations!
Matrix metering was designed amateures, who don't want to learn about photography but still want to take realible pictures of family or of vacations.
Ansel Adams didn't use matrix metering! He used spot metering. What about those photographers, who bring up Ansel Adams as an excuse for their cheating? Ansel Adams needed a high skill for what he did. A computer didn't help him! A computer not replace his photography skill!
Todays an already popular "photographer" have no idea what is a different between light metering and WB set up! And I'm not kidding!
I "teach2 photography over the Internet for beginners! I deal with lot of people who yhink they are a photographer, and actually they are making good pictures, but many of them don't have even the very basic skill about photography! I'm not just talking here, I have lot of experience about this thing! I experienced in the past 10 years how less and less photography skill have the newer generations of photographers. Many of them have no idea what the aperture and the shutterspeed does, but they are call themself as photographers, and others believe in them. believe they are have all the skill waht need to take those kind of pictures what they are shows us. But the truth is, they have no skill just a computer help them, the computer replace the skill, replace the brain.
I shoot on Fuji Velvia and Astia, with Nikon F6 and Pentax Z1p with Sigma zoom lenses.
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Re: When is photography not photography?
[Re: RomanJohnston]
#31066
09/07/10 04:11 PM
09/07/10 04:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
Attila Kegyes
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
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Quote:
You couldn’t post them here if they were not from a computer. Does that make them non photographs?
This is a usual but not too smart respond from digital photographers.
Just because the picture was scanned and transfer into a digital existence, it is not mean the computer did replace all the skill what needed to capture the photograph!
I never said the digital picture is not a photograph! I said it is depend how much and what kind of manipulation was made on a picture! I will not look up to some one who make me believe he/her got al the skill but actually use a computer to help to make it looks like he/she got it.
if I say: "I cross the ocean" it is a big deal? I did achive something, what can make me a somebody? Yes and no! It is depend, How I cross the ocean! If I cross it by plane just buy a ticket and flew over it is not a big deal, thousend of people do it every day! If I cross the ocean with my big luxury yacht it is a little bit bigger deal, but still easy, and I'm not became a hedline because of it!
If I cross the ocean with a little sailing boat sailing alone, I became a hedline, because I achive something extraordinary! Whatever how you cross the ocean you actually did nothing more just get from point A to point B! What is the result is not count as much as how you achive that! And people have a basic idea about photography They knows it is not easy, that's why, they are respect the photographer. If they are would know How easy it was, the respection would drop a lot! That is the reason why photographers want to call their manipulated pictures as photographs! Because they don't want to reveald their job was actually very easy, they want the people believe taking the photo needed a skill and it was a human achivement.
Quote:
I would argue that a scanner is just a lens capturing the light fed by the scanner. I know it’s a bit of a leap, but it does involve light and a lens to capture it with.
Just because both a car and the airplane use a gasoline and both have wheels and windows and doors, I wouldn't call them same, I wouldnt say it need the same skill to drive them!
A scanner is a scanner not a camera! Actualy even officialy the art made by scanners called scannography not photography, so there is nothing to arguing over here! It is NOT a photography!
Quote:
Is not Ansel’s adjustment after the capture the same as what you call cheating in Photoshop?
No it is not! It is not, because the pull processing is not needed because he make mistakes during ligth measuring and exposure set up! It is a technique what have to make this way because the nature of the emulsion on the film! If you not overexposed the negative, may be not enough lights hit the film over the shadow area. If not, the light sensitive materials not remain on the surface of the film! So if it is neccesary, you have to overexpose the film! But this is not accidental over exposition! If you made a mistake, you can't correct it ona film or on a slide! Only on a print. So the pull or even a push processing is not a cheating! If you make mistake and you fix it but still make the people believe you didn't make any mistake that is cheating.
Quote:
Just because we have a sensor instead of a chemical capturing the light doesn’t make it NOT photography
I agree with that! I never said taking pictures with digital camera is not photography! I said if the picture was manipulated in a computer, which actualy replace the skill, that is cheating, that is not photography! That is photo based computer graphic.
Quote:
I don’t edit things into my shots, nor do I clone things out. If there is garbage ruining my shot, I pick it up and pack it out with me. If telephone lines are in my way, I pick a new composition.
About the only editing I do that changes something is often on wide angle shots. If it has the moon in it, I take a separate shot of the moon with a longer lens. I also take note of something in the shot to give me a reference of what the moons true size is and when I add the moon back, to the picture, it is at the same size my eye saw it. I also disclose this editing on my posts so no one is confused.
Actually this is exactly I fighting for! Not make the viewers confused, not lie to them!
May be you are do the right thing but more and more "photographer" doesent! I see lot of fake pictures even from big names, and everyone believe those pictures are was captured that way!
I know many "photoraphers, who are doesen't have even basic skills but everybody consider them as a photographer.
I believe it is not right!
I shoot on Fuji Velvia and Astia, with Nikon F6 and Pentax Z1p with Sigma zoom lenses.
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Re: When is photography not photography?
[Re: psmith]
#31069
09/07/10 05:57 PM
09/07/10 05:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
Attila Kegyes
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
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Quote:
Don't do a search on Rarindra Prakarsa ... his work would drive you nuts
No, actualy it is not!
You know what drive me nuts?
When a photographer (I don't wanna write down his name) take a distance photo of a wild horse up on a hilltop, then take a close up shot of an other wild horse then take an other photo somewhere else of a sky, then put them to gether into one picture, make the viewers to believe, he was so good to capture that photo in that composition. There is no note or anything says this is a composit picture!
Or the other photographer (Also I not mention his name) take a photo of a seebirds nesting in a shoreline, around midday in an overcast day and take an other photo of a sunset when the sun setting front of the camera, then put togehter the two picture, make the viewers believe the photo of the seebirds was taken at sunset.
And who don't understand photography, not recognize the cheating, because they are don't know what is possibel what is not! They are believe the photographer is a master of exposure to make that shot!
This drive me nuts!
I shoot on Fuji Velvia and Astia, with Nikon F6 and Pentax Z1p with Sigma zoom lenses.
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Re: When is photography not photography?
[Re: RomanJohnston]
#31071
09/08/10 01:30 PM
09/08/10 01:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
Attila Kegyes
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
USA, Ohio
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Yes, you right, sometimes I just don't know the right words or the smoot one. For example where I came from, to say to some one, that he/her is lieing about something is nothing not an insult, but here in america it is. Over here better if I say he/her not saying the thrut insted of saying he/her lie. For me both is a same thing, for americans one of them is an insult. Quote:
But I must say, I try not to focus much on what others do and focus more on my own photography.
I tried not to focus on others, but the pure and true photogaphy can't compete with digital manipulations. And shouldn't compete with it, but they force to compete, just because they are calling the digital art as photography.
Digital manipulations give more opportunity to creating pictures. That's the idea of digital art, and nothing wrong with it! But this is the reason why it is not a photography.
As you said, "...People rely on photography to tell the truth in many cases. And many artists put in the time and work to be there when true magic happens."
But many digital photogrpahers create that "magic" with computer softwers. (yes they can!) Or least create something what is impossible to achive with true photography. But nothing wrong even with this if the viewers knows, that is not a true photo! But if the viewers believe that, it is a photo, from that moment that picture is compete with photography! But that is a very unfear competition!
It is same if painting would try to compete with photography, which one can be more realistic!
So this unfear competition killing the true photography. But it wouldn't be happen, if all the other art form would be call on its true name, which make no confusion.
The oil painting is oil painting the watercolor is watercolor, the photography is photography, the digital grafic is digital grafic, the scannography is scannography, etc.
But I know digital artist try to keep calling themselfs as photographer, and their manipulated pictures as photoraph because they have an unfear advantige over true photography, which give them a cahnce to surpass others even with less skill, less effort.
They don't want this chanse to go away, because if we would call the digital art not a photography, they should to compete in fear chance, which is much harder, and need more effort to stay on top. They want to keep the easy competition.
I shoot on Fuji Velvia and Astia, with Nikon F6 and Pentax Z1p with Sigma zoom lenses.
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Re: When is photography not photography?
[Re: Attila Kegyes]
#31073
09/08/10 04:38 PM
09/08/10 04:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Florida
Jim Garvie
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Joined: Mar 2005
Florida
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Quote:
Excelent point! But the carpentry is my job not my art!
Attila,
Photography has been both my job and my art for over 40 years. As such, I can't afford to be behind the technology curve with my cameras or processing. That's how I pay the mortgage. And, I'm sorry, but the same philosophy that drives your "Job" efforts should also drive your "artistic" efforts. Doing the best possible job in the least amount of time and at the lowest cost.
Jim
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