Jim knows how I think about this. All I am going to say here is the general public thinks nothing of stealing bandwidth from internet sites and they think nothing about stealing photos. I have a very select customer base that buy from me year after year. I have educated them over the years about what is right and what is wrong about image usage. I didn't try to educate them about copyright law, I taught them that if they want to use an image of mine, just ask. It works for me.

My sales are up this year because all my old customers have new dogs and the Novice classes are now the largest classes. That means more and bigger sales.

PeggySue,
what I'm talking about here is the stuff Booth, Ashbey, Meyer do: ring or podium win shots. That's the business I'm in primarily and I do it by myself without any additional photographers. Covering 12 rings by yourself is existential, especially at 60 years of age!

The formal win shot is still the mainstay of the AKC Conformation ring and it's not going to change substantially in the short term. Do folks want other types of shots for advertising? Absolutely. We do the advertising for 6 dog clients and we're always trying to get great beauty shots, candids and, the elusive great moving shot.

What I'm talking about is not what to shoot but what to deliver. Since before Al Gore invented the internet , folks have received an 8X10 print for their win. If they wanted to advertise that win, they ordered another 8X10 and sent it to the publication. There was no internet or website. Publications couldn't use files. Everybody was happy. Especially the photographers because they were getting extra print orders.

Then about 10 years ago, things started to change. The internet bred websites and over time everyone needed to have one. Magazine advertising went digital and instead of prints they wanted hi rez files. Computers started to enter every home and along with the computer came scanners. Suddenly, folks had the ability to make their own web files and advertising files. And, since nobody told them they couldn't, they did. And still do.

So now we suddenly come out from behind our digital cameras and tell them that when they buy our prints they haven't bought the right to scan them for web or ads and they think we're the thieves. "What do you mean I can't do what I've been doing for the past 5 years?"

Or, as I just explained to a very good client of mine, I can be absolutely correct and still lose her business. Since keeping her business is my objective, I'm looking for a better win/win scenario. And that may mean a different primary product.

As for the "gang bang" approach to photographing dog shows, that's how they do it in California and if the quality of the images is any measure of its success, it's not working. In theory, it could work. I might be great at shooting Rotties and Julie great at shooting Whippets and the owners of each breed could pick the best photographer for their particular breed. But from a practical business perspective, why would I spend a weekend competing for business I might or might not get? Besides the business of getting dog show contracts depends on graft and corruption and that is not likely to change in the near term.

I've just completed a mini-survey about this issue with some good clients and was reminded that in Canada, they proof, print and deliver a CD right at the shows. They charge $45 American for their product and they essentially deliver images right out of the camera but a lot of folks think it's the way to go. I'm not so sure.

Jim

David,
I've said this before but your business is different from mine. You have significant competition issues at every event you shoot. Your clients tend not to do a lot of advertising so your product mix is very different.

I have two very good friends who are Performance Photographers. They are as adamant about copyright usage fees as you are. They sell one-time use for one application and if you want to use that image for something else, you pay. No pay; no product. No compromise. And, because they essentially own the market around here (state of Florida) nobody complains. Well, they grumble a bit here and there but that's the way it is and people accept it.

Because their business is totally performance-based -- if you don't get a good shot, you don't get a sale -- I can understand their policy. I have more control of my environment and therefore more control of the number of "good" shots I can turn out. In that regard, I can make more sales but my images have less value. I don't catch the magic moment; I wait for that head to come down just a hair .

If my focus were Performance Photography, I think I'd be exactly where you and my other friends are. Right now, I think I need to be more flexible. I could be wrong.

Jim

Jim,
While your business is different than mine, the copyright issues are the same. As we give up and continue to give away our rights, someday we will wake up and have no rights.

One of your customers steals your photo and to keep her business, you are going to let her get by with stealing your photo. If she doesn't buy her win photos from you in the future, then how will she get them? She is the very kind of person that needs to go to court to teach her that it is not just a matter of "right or wrong", but it is also against the law. If you took this to Federal Court she would go to prison. She would lose her house, her pension and probably everything else she has.

I am beginning to see photographers that are too willing to give up their rights and I fear in the future, there will no longer be a professional photographer because we gave the profession away.

David, to me it is like pricing. You have the new people out there selling so darn cheap, it is not worth even doing some events anymore. I would never bother with lure coursing in my region, because the person doing them now sells original files for $2.

I don't like to sell files in general. I really don't. I am about to up my price on them so that they are not desirable to buy.

I really *personally* don't mind giving people WEB sized files for their websites and email bragging. They WILL scan prints anyhow and at least I can put my web addy on it to give myself credit

We as photographers have to change enough to keep up and not make it where we do not have business any longer. Of course we need our rights. But, there are some things it is just easier to give under our own volition.

I find it less stressful to have given out a small 500x 500 file with the purchase of a print vs just finding a scanned, low quality one on the web and being upset about it. I guess that is just my blood pressure management

"what I'm talking about here is the stuff Booth, Ashbey, Meyer do: ring or podium win shots. That's the business I'm in primarily and I do it by myself without any additional photographers. Covering 12 rings by yourself is existential, especially at 60 years of age!"


This is exactly the work I am talking about. After all the years you have been shooting, you should have a reputation and clientelle that want you. Booth etc. can hire many like Sears can for baby pictures. But we cannot or will not compete with them on the price level. We need to compete on the quality and unique level.

My best friend does many shows and some Nationals. We have had these conversation for years. She is producing images at the shows for people to take. No more sending proofs. When the show is over she is paid and on to the next show. BUT the work pace is horrible.

I may go to the Rottie Nationals next year at the advice of one of my clients. The OP for the shows are always at the mercy of the club in charge. As you know the politics of this business changes often. Jim, do you know Ronnie Bizer?

This is an interesting thread but I must admit it sounds a little gloomy. Yes this business is changing. We all have our own thoughts as to why. But being a Pollyanna, I want to find a way to make what I love work. As you said in your first post "Maybe it's time for us to change the way we think."

My suggestions may not be the route for all but without brainstorming sessions, how can we exchange ideas? Not that long ago wedding photographers were listed among the top ten over paid jobs! Now having been there and done that, I know it is not a get rich quick plan. Same with the love of our Pet Images. So how about coming up with some possiblities on how we can adjust to the changing buyer.

David,
I hear you and I understand and totally appreciate your position. I just don't fully agree with it.

You have advised all of us so eloquently on this list about listening to your market. That's what I'm trying to do. They're saying we don't give a damn about your usage rights we're gonna copy that doggon print and use it on our website. They're doing it. Would you advise that we go after every single one? That we spend our days cruising the net to see who has used our images on their websites?

Unless you have a way of policing usage policy that doesn't require us to give up our day-jobs, it simply isn't practical.

BTW, the results of my mini-survey are getting interesting: more people want that print than simply a file. I have more responses to go through and more comments to filter but that's a pretty surprising (to me) trend.

David, keep in mind I haven't abandoned ship yet. I'm merely discussing options. I can make the same argument as you and believe in it with just as much passion. But, ultimately, I need to try to see where the market is heading and it looks to me as if it's heading toward unlimited usage rights. I could be wrong. I try not to admit it but I've been wrong once or twice before .

Thanks David

Jim

I have to say that these conversations of the last few weeks have been great. Very candid with thoughtful exchange of ideas.

I don't think there is an easy answer. Times are a changin', but, that is *always* the case. Professional photography will not die out, it IS harder. Online resources help teach people the basics. The easy and cheap access to good equipment.

One of the best compliments I have received was a woman at a show said "Now I see how you get those prices". She is one of those that pulls no punches and says what she thinks.

There are a lot of photographers that are better than I am. There are many things that I am just not good at. What I must work on NOW is marketing and business. Something I am not so good at.

I hope these sort of discussions continue.

PeggySue,
Why anyone would want to be in the business I am is totally beyond me ! It's a tremendous amount of work for very little pay and virtually no positive feedback. It requires far more administrative/clerical skills than creative ones. Nobody respects the work. It's almost impossible to compete with the big guys.

So why do I do it? On my wall I have a slew of photographs of my first show dog, Annie Fay. At least I think she's in those photos. I can identify my handlers and the judges and there, somewhere toward the middle, is this black ink blot that I suppose is Annie.

I'm in this business because the people who have been doing it ad infinitum have been doing it badly for my breed. I felt it was time to actually be able to see Rottweilers in their win photos. I know I'm crazy but I think that's what owners want.

Now, let me point out that the great photographers in this business -- Kim Booth, John Ashbey -- take excellent photos and know how to light a black dog. Most of the others aren't really "photographers". They're people who have been taught how to set up a 2 1/4 film camera with flash at one exposure in every setting and click the shutter.

You know what my business is? It's database management. Keeping a database of folks who have received my proofs, those who have ordered, those who have paid, and, more importantly, those who have not.

And, it's sales. Sending out prospecting letters to clubs all over the country to try to oust existing show photographers and get them to hire me. Figuring out what incentive it will take. Sending out contracts for those shows I just shot to ensure I'll be back next year.

Oh, yeah, and sometimes it's about the dogs. Sitting on the floor taking shots of the Best Of Breed winning Cocker with a puppy sitting in your lap. Having a Rottie jump off the podium just to lick your face. Getting a big smoochy kiss from the Frenchie when you bend over to adjust a prop.

If it weren't for the dogs, I'd have chucked this business a long time ago. It doesn't pay back what you need to invest to be successful. In time. In money. In creative and emotional energy.

What part of this business do I like? I love actually photographing the dogs. Frankly, I love shooting candids, moving shots and beauty portraits far more than show formals. There I have more options for poses, angles, composition, etc. That's more of a challenge -- and therefore more rewarding -- than show formals.

My problem is that I'm very good with certain breeds and especially with Rottweilers. Together with my wife, Linda, I publish The Rottweiler Magazine. Nobody -- including Ashbey and Booth -- takes better formals of Rottweilers than I do. I wonder if I could make a living driving around the country just shooting Rottie Specialties?

Yes, I know Ronnie Bizer. Is she next year's show chair?

Anyway, I think brainstorming is a great way to expand our thinking beyond what we've always done. Or, as some workplace guru once said "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got." It's a platitude but it's also true. I'm trying to take my thinking beyond TriX and hypo-clearing agent and into the new millenium. The only way that can happen is if you think beyond the way things have always been done and try to come up with a better way.

Any time you want to brainstorm, I'm available.

Jim

I totally agree as to why we do it. I have been on this discussion with my best friend who envisions her retiring and the four of us travelling the country doing shows. Spouses are best friends too. Problem is she is of the mindset that is shooting win shots and I have a different approach. Friendship and business does not always mesh so we may just do some traveling!

I just this last month donated two of my 2 1/4 to my local college. I kept one because I could not totally give it all up yet. I sold my 4x5 to a guy in England on Ebay. I am also currently selling items on Ebay that I sell at dog shows. Hopefully if you really like shooting dogs, you find a way to connect with that love and give buyers something they want.

Having started my earning life as an artist, I spent 17 years going to artshows. That to has changed and I found photography while taking Graphic Design in college. I had Dektol in my veins from that point on. The commercial job lasted 8 years and the catalog I shot for sold the 100 year old company. Times change. I thought I could shoot antiques for ever and I then feel in love with the auction business. I joined PPA, got Certified and my Masters of Photography. Rented a studio, built a studio and like you have become disappointed in this business. But that is up to me to react differently, not for the business to be the way it was.

As an artist I have always seen artists share more than photographers since they seem to feel you will steal their business. Well, now with stealing a real fact, I do not want to feel my clients are the enemy. I want them as friends. I do not have people come in the studio and cry when they see a photo, but they did a painting. Why people give other mediums more respect has always puzzled me. In fact I should have caught on when I was at an art show with my paintings and was next to a photographer with a sign on his booth-
"Compliments don't pay the bills"

The secondary market is seeing photography as art form or Soethbys would not have auctions just for that. And a Weston collection just went up for sale last month. WOW what prices. But just as a young painter I thought I would have to be dead in order to make it big. My choice of art was wildlife and I went to shows all over the country. I was in shows with Bateman, Brenders and many whos work I admired. Why I left that for photography baffles me but it could have been the instant gratification in the darkroom. (I really did not know instant until Digital) I think that may be it. We do not value instant!

That is it! When I was at art shows people would ask how long did it take you to paint that painting? I always found that strange but when a friend replyed, "it took me thirty years to learn to paint it", I wanted to use that reply.

Okay, that is enough of my brainstorming, how do we add to perceived value to our work? Also I am including some images of Ms. Bizers pups. She is the show chair of my obedience trial and this year I am trophy chair. I get to go shopping! Do you want to go to Minn, in May 08? I am not sure how she is involved with that show, but I will ask.