Puppy aggression?

we have a 12 week old male mastiff x rottie. we have had him since he was 8 weeks and got him from a rescue home. he is a lovely pup, slowly picking up the house training, will now sit for treats. the problem we have is what we think is aggression towards our children. obviously he is always trying to eat peoples feet and we have taught him 'leave it'. he will listen to this almost 100% with myself and my hubby but never with the children we always have to step in. if i go upsatirs for anything, usually a shower or even to put away some washing he is unrelenting with the kids to the point of hurting them. he constantly snaps at their feet and jumps at them mouthing. i now just leave my 16 year old with the pup and put the younger 2 ( 12 & 10) in another room while im upstairs. but he is a nightmare! yesterday my 16yr old said 'mum its a different growl now he doesnt like me'! as soon as i come back down and tell him he stops! i started yesterday geting my 16 yr old to prepare and give him his food thinking this might make him see that she is 'above' him in ranking and it worked ok. but no sooner than im out of sight he is off again! does anyone have any answers or tips?
Thanks

Trying to "rank" humans and dogs smacks of Cesar Milan, who, in my not so humble opinion, is a HACK.

That's all I'll say about training.

Now, a pet photography forum isn't the best place to ask for behavior advice. I'd recommend finding a good trainer. One who will work with you AND your kids to find out what's really going on and if there is anything beyond normal puppy play combined with children who may not know how to deal with a puppy.

I'm happy to ask around among the trainers and behaviorists I know to see who is in your area with a good reputation.

Here's a reference from one of my dog clients:

Tell him to check out the San Antonio Dog Training Club,

http://sadtc.org/index.php
210.738.1030

And another:

Tell him to check out the San Antonio Dog Training Club,

http://www.superdog.com/trainer%20pages/training-texas.html
(210) 788-6157

I can't vouch for either of them, but just about anything is better than a photography forum for training advice.

Jessica, I went through this with my male whippet puppy from 8-10 weeks old. It was *dominance* not aggression. And yes, he was establishing his place in the pack. My daughter was the only one he felt he could be above and being a fairly dominant puppy, he would bite her and he wasn't kidding. I know what I did, but, wouldn't suggest it to someone who doesn't know what they were doing. Maybe Jim Garvie can help out as he has Rotties as his breed

Thanks Julie. We all know how aggressive and dominant those Rotties can be . Without seeing the behavior or the environment in which the behavior is taking place, it's very difficult to assess what the real issue is. It could be that the puppy is a true dominant and it could be true that there is no real alpha in the household. Or both. Or neither .

We start socializing our puppies with kids when they are 3 weeks old and they learn that by the time they are ready to go into homes, the kids are not pack members but authority figures just like mom and dad. And we teach the kids in homes where our pups are going how to be leaders and not simply members of the pack. Sometimes that part is harder than training the puppies. Sometimes, in homes that have a super-alpha adult, the pups just don't relate to anybody but that person and it's difficult to "pass the baton" to anybody else.

We usually suggest that the pup start basic obedience training in a structured environment and with the members of the household who have to establish dominance. That process -- over 6 weeks or so -- usually gets the kids to understand how to get the puppy to obey and gets the puppy to understand that it is his job to obey them. Find a good puppy obedience class in your area and sign up. Get the kids to be the "trainers" of the puppy in that class. In time, the puppy will understand his/her role with those family members.

Of course, Rotties are much more difficult than any other breed when it comes to aggression and dominance as Julie knows. So, we just give them MilkBones and hope they obey us when they get to be 135 lbs. Like Sundance last year at Halloween with a small child he'd never met before .



Enjoy and good luck.

Jim

Jessica,
one of the things Julie was alluding to in her post was how physically firm you can be in correcting a puppy. With certain breeds -- Goldens, Whippets, etc. -- you can be pretty stern in terms of corrections including alpha rolls if you are so inclined. With more "dominant" breeds, lots of people will tell you that stern corrections only exacerbate the behavior. Poppycock!

We've always corrected our puppies -- whether Goldens or Rotties -- the same way their moms do in the whelping box: we take them by the scruff of the neck and shake them until they squeal. Then, we walk away and don't pay any attention to them until they demonstrate proper behavior. And our puppies have grown up to be Therapy Dogs, Champions and multi-titled working dogs.

Since you got this dog after the initial "breaking in" period of 8 weeks, you might have to correct certain behavior in a way that he understands that you actually mean it. You have to be gentle but firm. The puppy needs to understand that certain behaviors are not acceptable. Once you establish the ground rules, you can then work on training the behaviors that you DO want especially with the younger family members.

Hope that helps some,

Jim

To add to what Jim is saying, timing and body language is so important and then just living the whole deal is what keeps it all together. McGuire will still put his teeth on Tanis(no biting,just telling her "You can't tell me what to do) but, he would NEVER do so to Larry or I. He is a whippet though and the implications of his behavior are lessor than a larger more powerful dog. He also only does it in response to her dragging him around. He looks around for me when he does, as he knows he is not supposed to do it.

Cesar Milan is actually very good. He is just not one that everyone can emulate in a correct fashion. He is who he is and his natural personality adds to his success. I don't agree with all he does and says, but, for the most part he has a good handle on dog behavior.

Then you have the click treat cookie cookie believer that feel that the only way is positive reinforcement. I don't believe it for my kids nor for the dogs.

Again, I don't want to give advice on how to handle the situation because I am not there and I don't know a fraction of the whole picture.

Puppies, like kids, test the waters of what they can get away with. Like kids, each one has a different way of needing to be dealt with. I cannot discipline my son the same way I do my daughter, as he is a softer hearted person and she is much more stubborn.

Anyone who thinks there is not pack order among all beings needs to sit in a field and watch a herd of horses, hang out in a schoolyard and watch the kids, go to a dinner party and observe the guests or watch a litter of puppies and see how they behave. All beings ascribe to pack order. we all must establish our place, whether dog, cat, horse, or human.

I agree to the above your puppy is asserting its dominence, and finding it's place in your home (pack) ... regardless of breed, it is up to you to point out his place in your pack

I used to raise horses, and one of the first things we did with a newborn foal (and this may sound cruel), was to lightly pin it to the ground, enough that it knew that a human could hold it down, but not enough to hurt it ... guess what? every foal of mine grew up thinking us humans were bigger & stronger & they respected us for life ... similar philosophy on dominance in your pack ... who's the boss? and who do you want to be the boss?

find a trainer who can help you one on one to correct this now, or it is a battle this dog will have for life, regardless of his owners, but you must find a trainer who can watch it happen ... us net friends around the country cannot help you with the exact hows to fix the issue

Just to underscore what Julie said, a few years ago, we had one of our puppies from Annie's first litter come back to stay with us for a few weeks. Gianni was a large boy at 26 1/2 inches tall and 130 lbs. and he came back into a household with an Alpha male -- our Rowdy. While Rowdy was not small he wasn't nearly as big and brawny as Gianni and you could see his eyes get big when Gianni walked into the house. But Gianni had spent the first 8 weeks of his life in that house and Rowdy had been his alpha too. So, when Rowdy took him by the cheek and walked him around the house "talking" to him, Gianni let him do it and the two of them never had an angry word with each other. In fact, Gianni and Rowdy would lay in the foyer butt-to-butt during the day perfectly happy to be together. Two intact male Rottweilers.

When I brought Gianni up to spend a little time with the handler who was going to show him here in Florida, Gianni got out of the van, looked around at the kennels and other dogs, chicken-scratched and peed on everything to announce -- with no uncertainty at all -- that he was an alpha male and nobody was to mess with him. Different environment and different pack so different behavior to establish pack order.

As Julie says, we can't say what's happening in your household but it is your responsibility to establish your own "pack order" there and make sure the new puppy understands he's at the bottom of the totem pole. You can hire as many trainers as you want but, ultimately, it is you who have to be trained in order for you to manage your dog. And, while I don't agree with everything Caesar Milan does, the fact is that he is a true alpha and therefore can get away with doing things that other people would not be successful doing.

Good luck and send some pics of this devil dog. I'm dying to see him.

Jim

Well this has been quite an interesting thread for me to read. With us having 3 cats as well as our dog, we really have to be consistent with our pack order. Our cats are always top, and we do everything we can to relay that to the dog. Daisy knows her place, but we do occasionally need to remind her of that. We would love to add a second dog, but scared we might disturb the current balance in the household.

Marie,
at one point not too long ago, we had 7 dogs and 3 cats in this household and several canine visitors from time-to-time. The dogs that lived here, grew up with the cats so they respected them and let them alone. Every puppy that has ever been bred here spent the first 8 weeks of their lives with cats and so there was never any issue having them move into families with cats.

When we rescued Marion Louise -- a street dog -- we had some concerns about how she would react to the cats. The first evening she stayed in our house, she had finally realized that she could sit on the couch with me and so she had crawled up there and OJ, our youngest cat, jumped onto the top of the back of the couch, laid down and placed his paw on Marion Louise. She accepted that act of trust the way we had hoped she would and she and OJ were fast friends for the rest of their lives.

The thing about this household is that there is a true alpha male and a true alpha "bitch" that all the animals can relate to: me and Linda. I don't say that lightly -- when you have a large, complex pack, you need clear direction and these guys get it from us. We are with them full-time since we work out of the house. None of the animals have ever felt the urge to "depose" us as the leaders of the pack. In fact, we make their lives much easier because they only have to be dogs and cats.

Jim

Quote:

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Anyone who thinks there is not pack order among all beings needs to sit in a field and watch a herd of horses, hang out in a schoolyard and watch the kids, go to a dinner party and observe the guests or watch a litter of puppies and see how they behave. All beings ascribe to pack order. we all must establish our place, whether dog, cat, horse, or human.

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Each one of those cases involves pack order among members of a specific species. None of them describe an inter-species pack order. It just doesn't happen.

Any human who truly believe s/he can do anything exactly like a canine is fooling themselves. We are NOT canines, we're not built like them, we don't think like them and the idea that any of us can truly "speak dog" is ludicrous.

The barbaric methods of yesteryear are thankfully fading from popularity. Yes, they do produce results, but they do so at a cost and certainly don't work for the reasons that folks long thought they did.

There is a place for discipline, but things like Alpha rolls and scruff shakes have been long debunked as good training methods.