The Nature, Wildlife and Pet Photography Forum - Fine Art Landscape Photography

Is this acceptable???

Posted By: Diane

Is this acceptable??? - 12/25/10 08:10 PM

Hello all. I've been a member of this forum for some time, but have not posted since ..... well, a long time. However, I've recently agreed to photograph some dogs for MONEY!!! In fact, I am now breaking into the photography business, wherein my day job is a landscape architect for the National Park Service (retiring as soon as I can) ..... anyway..... The photo.....

I was asked to shoot in her house, as I do not have a studio. I took this shot, which I think is quite good of the dogs, but the door, furniture, and blue storage tub were unacceptable additions. And, these dogs were so poorly trained, that every shot was a grab shot. There was no posing going on here. The image can be found here, along with a few others:

http://www.dustydogdigital.com/Pets/Pets/4194759_wG8Ax#1134961203_SMzXp-A-LB

So, I masked out everything but the dogs, and put them onto a layer of blended nothing. I think it looks decent, and the customer loves it. But, is it acceptable in the big, wide world of professional pet photography? Do others here do this? Your thoughts and advice would be wonderful. Thanks!

p.s. I am going to continue to do this as long as my customer base wants it. Ideally, I'm looking for a studio to rent or share. That's coming soon....
Posted By: Sunstruck

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 02:28 AM

The photo is nice Diane. I would suggest that you invest in some muslin backdrops, blankets, or table cloths to use as a background. You don't need to invest in a lot of equipment. A backdrop stand, a couple of backdrops, and if you are going for the studio look, some strobes.

I do what you are starting to. I go to peoples' homes and take portraits of their dogs and cats. If you don't have room to set up the stands, just throw the backdrop over a couch, chair, etc. I found a bed works great, throw the backdrop over the headboard, or even set the backdrop stands on either side of the bed.

Lots of luck, your photos are nice.
Posted By: James Morrissey

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 01:59 PM

Hey Diane,

I am going to wait until i get home and see this on my monitor. It is color calivrated and my ipad is not. I THINK it looks pretty good though.

FYI, I also do what you are doing. Living in Manhattan, it is pretty impractical for me to dedicate my living room into a studio and I have been able to get by just fine. As Penny says, backdrops are good and cheap. When we first started, a lot of stuff we purchased came from fabric stores.

Now we bring an entire portable studio into everyone's home. It kind of blows their minds when I come in.

James
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 02:27 PM

The photo of the dogs look fine, I am not a huge fan of the digital background as it looks like, a digital background. If you are going to do this for money, you will find most dogs are NOT trained, do not sit still and will not cooperate. It will be your job to know how to deal with it.

I am busy because I deal with all kinds of dogs, not just trained ones. The ones who sit still are a real rarity
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 02:52 PM

Yeah, that's the problem. Digital backgrounds look like digital backgrounds, even if the dogs look good. I've found that when some people don't know better, they think it's great. But, cashing in on that seems rather cheesy. I will invest in some backdrops when I get back from Uganda (another story...). I've seen what some people post, and they make all the difference in the world. Is there a listing of what goes into a traveling studio on this site? I'd imagine backdrops and lighting would be the basics. But, money will be key, and right now, I think I may have to stick with a flash.

Thanks so much. You're all great, and now that I'm actually taking this leap towards professionalism, you'll likely see me around here a lot more. :-)
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 02:58 PM

In addition, as for dealing with untrained dogs, any tricks. I brought along some treats, but my last customer wanted shots of the dogs with their mouths open and "smiling". I told her that as long as treats are around, and they're in smelling mode, their mouths will be closed, so withhold the treats. But, of course, the dogs then went kind of nuts. There were six of them, and pack mentality prevailed. We separated them, but for goddess' sake, it was insane....

Shooting dogs professionally is really a challenge. Fact is, I love dogs. They are amazing animals.
Posted By: Sunstruck

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 03:15 PM

Hi Diane,

With the booking of a session, I email out a list of things the owners "should" do before I arrive. One of the things is to take their dogs for a long, long walk ( or run) before I show up. I find a lot of home dogs do not get enough time out side or socializing. A long walk or some serious play time before showing up goes a long way towards getting the edge off the dogs.
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 03:45 PM

Diane,
I think the final image is very nice. You can do a lot of "fixing" in post-processing but the objective is to minimize the amount you HAVE to do. Which means bringing enough stuff with you to build a backdrop on location.

With pets, we have always found that going to the owners' homes works out better than bringing the pets into our studio. The exception being -- for us -- if the pets are puppies we've bred because when we have litters, we set up the whelping box in the studio and that's where they spend the first 8 weeks of their lives.

Because I shoot dog shows, my setup has been put together for maximum portability. Whether I'm setting it up at a Fairgrounds or in someone's living room, it really doesn't matter. A light-weight backdrop stand, a 12-foot pole and lots of muslin backdrops along with 2 AB 400's and I'm good whether it's here in the studio or anywhere else in the country. So, like Penny and James, I suggest you invest the in the backdrop stand and find a couple of basic backdrops. Over time, you can just shop the fabric bins at Michaels or JoAnne's to find stuff that works equally well.

As I said, having studio space is fine but for pets, going on location is usually better in my experience. Lots depends on how well-trained the pets are but generally-speaking, they will be more comfortable in their own environment.

Jim
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 05:15 PM

I have better luck at my studio, because I have everything set up and ready to go. I don't really have issues with the badly behaved ones, as I just put a show lead on them and photoshop them out

If I was going to go to people's homes, I'd use a very shallow dof and use a more lifestyle approach vs posed portraits.
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 06:09 PM

Quote:

If I was going to go to people's homes, I'd use a very shallow dof and use a more lifestyle approach vs posed portraits.




I think that depends on what the client expects. If they have a great location, then lifestyle is fine. But here in Orlando -- and I'm sure with James in NYC -- you often find yourself in an apartment with not much ambiance. So, I bring my portrait stuff and can do whatever is going to work at that particular location.

The key to me is that I've set up my entire business to be mobile so it's not a hassel for me to pack it up and unpack it. That approach works great for pet portraits or corporate portraits which I do a fair amount of. You set up in the Board room and you can get the officers when they have a free moment or two instead of having to drag them down to my studio and waste their time in traveling to and from.

I love doing studio shoots because of the control factor. It's just that my "studio" can be wherever I set it up.

Jim
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/26/10 10:03 PM

Funny you should mention corporate work. I've got a dog client who is also a real estate agent, and I'm trying to break into head shots with them and move from there.

I'm darn close to having two complete set ups now. One to be left in the studio and one to take on the road.
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/27/10 08:51 PM

Jim,
that's my plan as well but with us planning to move into a new home in early Feb., I'm kinda glad I waited for the purely studio setup. Less things to move. Also glad I didn't set up an outside studio since I'd have had to travel a lot farther than I'd like once we're in the new house.

It will be interesting to see how much room I have for a permanent setup in the new place. Smaller house; much bigger lot (over an acre) so it's really much better for the dogs but not necessarily for a photographer. We're going over to take measurements next week so I'll have a much better idea of space after that. There's room to build and there's good retail space nearby so either way, we'll figure out a way to make it work.

Jim
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/27/10 11:19 PM

Sounds like a plan. I didn't realize you were moving.

I'd kill for a studio in a dedicated retail space, but right now all it would kill would be the budget I'm afraid.
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/28/10 01:57 AM

Jim,
yes, I agree, but compared to adding space to a home -- maybe not all that bad an alternative. At least you can pay as you go . I'm not sure what the right answer is at this point but I will have a studio and I will be on the road. The question is how much of each. Right now my inclination is to bring it with me wherever the action or portraits are. It's a small inconvenience compared to promoting and bringing people to a studio location. Especially if I decide the right answer is to be at shows doing ring candids and portraits. In MHO, the best people to do portraits of show dogs are the folks who know how they should be set up for ring formals. You can attest to the difficulty of shooting specific breeds if you don't know how they "should" be set up for ring formals. The best headshots I've ever gotten is of dogs as they were showing in the ring. That's what the judges see.

I have a feeling what the right answer is. I just need to implement it along with shows. The key is being able to travel and keep the family together. 4 dogs is a lot easier than what we've had to manage in the past. Plus, Moxie is showing and Sundance is doing Performance stuff. As long as we don't breed another litter in the short term, I can afford to be on the road. Of course, Max (the Rowdy son) would like to make some puppies now that he's a Champion (CHIC with full clearances, Hips Excellent) and that's on the agenda for the Spring with Moxie's mom, Juneau. So, road trips look like they are limited to the early part of 2011 . I'll let you know what we decide in terms of studio space.

Jim
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/29/10 02:18 PM

Very interesting read. Thanks all, as I'm truly absorbing all this. I will definitely be investing in a simple portable studio after my Uganda trip. This masking business kind of sucks, which is why I posted this. I did realize that studio photography is likely easier, as there is not the issue of controlling the background. In a small house with lots of clutter (even when the owner doesn't realize it's clutter), it's impossible, no matter how shallow the dof. I was shooting at f/4 primarily, and wider open, but it still was impossible. I found this website, http://www.backdropexpress.com/index.aspx , which seems to have very decent prices. Your thoughts??
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/29/10 06:16 PM

Diane,
Backdrop Express and Backdrop Outlet (www.backdropoutlet.com) both carry some decent, inexpensive basic backdrops. I've also purchased muslin at JoAnne's and painted the backdrop myself using spray cans. Alternately, I've found great fabrics in the discount bins at JoAnne's, Michaels and even Walmart.

As for lights, my AB400s give me F8 @ 10 feet and ISO 200 using silver reflectors or the Alien Bee silver 64-inch PLMs. I'm at F6.3 with a single PLM. And, for me, everything is portable in two relatively lightweight cases including the backdrop stand and light stands. A little extra lugging comes into play when I bring the Vagabond but sometimes that's necessary.

Good luck with the search. That can be fun, too.

Jim
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/29/10 07:42 PM

You can also do outdoor portraits which I think tend to even turn out better than indoor ones. I am about 50/50 on studio/location. Location tends to make larger sales. I do not like doing in people's homes as a rule.
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 12/31/10 05:20 PM

I have been thinking about this thread since I am about to do a viewing session from an in home shoot. It was not a large home, just a smaller rancher without a lot of light. You can make it work by isolating your subject.

I took photos of their cats like this, on the kitchen table with the window for light.
Posted By: StarrLight

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 02:58 AM

Quote:

Diane,
Backdrop Express and Backdrop Outlet (www.backdropoutlet.com) both carry some decent, inexpensive basic backdrops. I've also purchased muslin at JoAnne's and painted the backdrop myself using spray cans. Alternately, I've found great fabrics in the discount bins at JoAnne's, Michaels and even Walmart.
Jim




My backdrops are all JoAnnes fabrics, 60" wide, which is fine for the cat show photos on the 4' table. But I'd been shooting a lot more of the exhibitors and only have one really large backdrop, its blue/grey. Will be looking for another with warmer colors. The big one I got when I was on another (pay) photo forum, they had a sales thread. Got a good deal. But also watch craigslist, etc.

I actually live pretty close to Backdrop Outlet, should go visit one of these days.

Diana
Posted By: StarrLight

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 03:00 AM

Quote:

Diane,
I've also purchased muslin at JoAnne's and painted the backdrop myself using spray cans.
Jim




Actually, wouldn't those fabric paints better for backdrops? Would the paint be less stiff? I'd like to try this.

Diana
Posted By: StarrLight

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 03:05 AM

Quote:


So, I masked out everything but the dogs, and put them onto a layer of blended nothing. I think it looks decent, and the customer loves it. But, is it acceptable in the big, wide world of professional pet photography? Do others here do this? Your thoughts and advice would be wonderful. Thanks!





What you might do is to use a clone tool (not sure what its called in Photoshop, I use paint shop pro photo), with very low opacity and select background area just outside the edge of the dog's fur and "smooth" out the edges a bit. It really works wonders!

Diana
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 05:03 AM

I did use the clone tool. I masked, cloned, and cloned some more. Fact is, it's way too much work. As we all know, the less we have to do in post processing, the better the final outcome. I like the images I took of the dogs. The backgrounds really sucked. I think I did OK, and the client was very happy, but it's not ideal by a long shot.

I also agree about taking outdoor shots. The light is better, and the backgrounds are always better than a cluttered house. But when I shot this image, it was cold, gray and muddy in her yard. And, the dogs, all six of them, were not well trained at all. They're rescues, and she fosters them. It was a tough shoot.

I am going to get some backdrops. I see now how utterly critical it really is, if I going to pursue this in any meaningful way. Fact is, nature and wildlife photography is more of what I've done over the years, but I'm looking for a more lucrative photography venture now. Pet photography seems like a perfect match. I'm going to hit the business hard when I get back from Uganda in February. (Stay tuned for some of my postings in the wildlife forums.)
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 12:19 PM

I do not drag backdrops with me. Even if I had, there would not have been room in this house to set them up. This was what I came up with: http://juliepoole.com/blog/2010/12/31/3-dogs-and-3-cats/ The photos on white were done at my studio. They were so happy with those, they asked me to come to their home.

The thing about going into business, is you need to be able to deal with whatever the situation is and come out with a beautiful product. Spastic dogs, mean dogs, insane cats, bad locations, bad lighting conditions etc;

If you go into business before you even know how to handle dogs at their home(and they all act pretty bad, its the rare one that is good, and when you get the easy ones its a total treat)

I have made many many mistakes in my short career and I always try and advise people to not make the mistakes I did. If you really want to make a living doing this stuff, study those who do. Look at what you are doing and then what they are doing and see how they are marketing and what their product quality is(many of these people are on this forum)

Some of my favorites(and there are plenty more I am not listing)
http://smithphotodesign.com
http://www.erinvey.com
http://www.bevhollisphoto.com/
http://www.teresaberg.com/
http://www.bryantdogphotography.com/
http://www.pawprintsphotography.com/
http://www.photobysuebird.com/
http://www.carolbeuchat.com/
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 12:41 PM

That one with the little one looking up at the big one is GREAT!

I do seem to recall a while back you swore you would NEVER shoot a butt shot though.
Posted By: Jim Garvie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 02:29 PM

I love doing outdoor portraits and I've used the strobes as primary lighting in addition to doing available light. The problem with that in Orlando is that our average Summer temps are in the 90's and dogs really don't look great with their tongues hanging down to the ground. But if you can find a great location on a decent day, it's gold!

I agree with everything else that Julie says especially the requirement to be prepared for everything. That's why I bring my studio-in-a-van to all location shoots. I may not use any of it or just some of it but it's there if I need it. And it doesn't require a lot of schlepping to get it there.

As for the dogs, I guess I've been really lucky. I've not found one that was impossible to photograph. Some bait better than others and some are more photogenic than others but I shoot mainly show dogs and they are used to being posed and baited. Regular family dogs are harder but -- knock on wood -- I've never met one that was mean. Some that were shy but we worked it out. Some that preferred to be sitting in my lap licking my face but we also worked that out . Like shooting shows, it's all about getting the shot. You have to continually create situations in your mind that will give the dog a chance to show his/her personality. The technical stuff -- camera, lens, backdrops, lighting, etc. -- has to be almost automatic. You need to put yourself in a position to concentrate on the subject and get the shot(s).

Jim
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 02:33 PM

I meant to add. One of the best ways to learn to deal with all sorts of dogs is to do portraits for rescue group adoption pages. I did that for quite a while before I ever dreamed of charging for my work.

This year, I hope to open up more time to get back to the rescues again!
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 04:28 PM

God, you guys are all great!!! I am serious about shooting pets. Very serious. My day job is a landscape architect/planner for the National Park Service, and I am about two years from retirement. So, I don't need to make a gazillion bucks doing this. But, I do want to supplement my retirement income, as I will be taking quite a hit. And, the fact is, I LOVE photography. It's my passion. My day job is for the money, quite frankly. If I can get as much equipment as possible (I just replaced my old Sigma 70-200 2.8-4.0 with the newer constant aperture OS) before I retire, then I'll be good to go.

Julie, I'm going to check out all those links you posted. I will also need to hire someone to revamp my website to something more professional. Right now, it's a mess, which undoubtedly you've all noticed already. :-)

Also, about 10 miles from here is the national headquarters of the Guide Dog Foundation. I think I could start there, and of course, the rescue dogs. The chocolate poodle is a rescue, the largest poodle I EVER saw, about 8 months old, untrained, and very wary. He was a challenge. I did charge a very minimal amount for the job - Would you believe $40 for the sitting (for 6 nutso dogs) plus her cost for any prints from my website, which she has yet to order. She was really happy with that. Suffice it to say, I took a loss on this job. hehehe.......

I have owned dogs, but not now. Zuki, my dusty dog, was a rescue, shepherd/wolf mix from a no-kill shelter. I was her fourth owner, and she was only 18 months when I got her. A huge, 110 lbs scared, obviously beaten, severe separation anxiety, car sickness like you wouldn't believe, and just beautiful. It took 2 years of real work to train her to live in a human world. I loved that dog like you wouldn't believe. We worked it out, and in the process, I learned a lot about dealing with difficult dogs. Not that I'm an expert, but I do know a few things. :-) She was euthanized at age 7, after a fibrocartelagenous embolism (FCE) rendered her a quadriplegic. It broke my heart.

http://www.dustydogdigital.com/Pets/Pets/4194759_wG8Ax#136171263_Jn7gD-A-LB

I am so glad I started this thread. I did so rather tentatively, expecting to be somewhat trashed for putting up something so "unprofessional." You all are great. Thank you so much.
Posted By: Diane

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 05:02 PM

Quote:

That one with the little one looking up at the big one is GREAT!

I do seem to recall a while back you swore you would NEVER shoot a butt shot though.




Did I say that?

Actually, I think I did post that a center, highlight portrait in a collage should have a dog with both eyes visible. It's a preference thing.
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/01/11 06:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

That one with the little one looking up at the big one is GREAT!

I do seem to recall a while back you swore you would NEVER shoot a butt shot though.




Did I say that?

Actually, I think I did post that a center, highlight portrait in a collage should have a dog with both eyes visible. It's a preference thing.




Nope, Julie said that a while back about a butt shot.
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/03/11 11:58 AM

Jim, I would not shoot an action shot as a butt shot. There is no point to it unless something really neat happened that I happen to catch.

The walking away photos I will do, or looking away. Its better with a dog like a whippet, that hides its privates, but, in life it just depends.

But, the moody looking away photos I will do. Some people love them, but most aren't really into them
Posted By: Jim Poor

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/03/11 01:03 PM

Ah, thanks for the clarification. One of my favorites is to have the dog sit / down facing 3/4 away from me and look back over the shoulder.
Posted By: Julie

Re: Is this acceptable??? - 01/03/11 03:17 PM

I like that too.
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