I know that no one is really on the site yet, but I was hoping that people who may be doing this would share their pricing structures.

I recently photographed my local veterinary clinic's photographs for their websites. During this process, I have been asked to do some pet portraits.

Here is my problem...I am a wedding photographer. While I certainly have done lots of wildlife work (and I certainly have tons of photographs of my favorite felines), my experience with pets - and their caretakers - is limited.

Any help in this area would be appreciated.

I would suggest that you do not stray too far from your wedding hourly costs. While I am not a professional, I am sometimes amazed at how much a photographer costs. My brother and I tried to hire one for my parent's anniversary - it was obscene how much the prices were. The fee to come to a restaurant was 400 dollars for 2 hours -with another $400 dollar minimum to be spent on photographs. I might add that the photographs were not cheap either.

Tim

I am also a wedding photographer and would like to see some input on James's question. My wife has horses and knows a lot of other horse folks. I'd like to start taking pictures of horses and their owners. Other than the usual portrait equipment (and boots!) I would like to know more about sitting fees and finished print pricing.

Art

This is what I do for a living...sometimes I wonder if I make enough...but here goes....

There are a couple of things to bear in mind when photographing animals....first there is the matter of anciliary usages. Stock work with animals is a lucrative market in and of itself...and in the USA....copyright, and privacy laws favor the photographer's subsequent right to use the images in other markets.....I personally have made over $50K in some years in book work...and this is an area of very real concern to me...and I think it should also concern any good photographer who ever wants to achieve any fame/acknowledgement for his craft....and for me it does allow me to pay all the bills.

In some years 50% of our income has come from publishing...

I photograph cats at cat shows. We have structured our original market with the idea, that we will be earning additional income from the sale of images to publihers...and have structured out sessions with this in mind. In other words...we expect the publishing to at least somewhat subsidize the fees we charge the clients at the shows.

We used to make about 50% of our income from reprints. But since digital, and the internet, we find that many no longer order reprints....and business has been down about 40% over the past three to four years..probably a function of people using their "new" digital cameras...and the economy.

Publishing....has also taken a hit...in that many magazines, and books are today paying the same rates they were paying in 1976 when we bagan the business....considering inflation since that year..this means real payments have also gone down.

Many of my competitors have quit the business in the last three years due to the decreasing market...lucky for me...as a consequence we have been able to hang on.

First to session fee structure. It has been my experience that the monetary value of the animal relates directly to the potential profit in photography. Horse photographers earn more than dog photographers, earn more than cat photographers....and I don't think there is enough business to sustain rat/mouse/rabbit photographers...so there probably aren't any who specialize in that area....

With dog, and horses....show photography has to a large extent been characterized as a photo of the judge, handler, rider, owner, trophy..and oh yes the animal... This is because it is a political hobby, and the people are at times just as important in "bragging" rights...as the actual animal pictured...and often in "advertising" usages by the owners of the animals...are just as important as what the animal looks like.

I can't help you with pricing on these venues...as I don't do that for a living.

I do closer to what is mentioned above as shooting at a vet clinic/cat show...I do what I term "formal portraiture" of the animals...usually by themselves....and a session of shots with different poses, rather than a staged one or two shots as is done in show rings.

When I started I shot 6 shots for $6....it was a long time ago...and if we factor for inflation not that far off from what I charge today... Recently .. the past couple of years the package has been in flux due to changes/expectations due to digital imaging...but a month ago I was still charging a session for $20+$2 per shot taken....and they got one 4x6 uncropped proof of all the shots....sessions thus ranged from about $24 --$60 depending upon how cooperative, or difficult the subject proved to be...

A little history here...we used to charge a flat fee for a set number of shots...problem was...if we shot over than amount...we were taking it in the shorts financially...and if the subject would not stand for that number of pictures...cats do at times say.."I'm not going to stay here for any more of those flashes!"...we ended up charging ...say 1/2 price for 6 photos...which wasn't really good either, as usually if we only got 6 photos is meant that the subject was far more difficult than the average..and on that basis...why would we want to charge less...when we had to work much harder for the results?...also...often the owner would volunteer to allow us to finish the session with a different animal...which meant that we were working with two subjects (usually both difficult)...and getting paid for one....that is what led to the $20+2 structure we had been using....more photos pay more, fewer pay less, no set number that you have to attain...so when the cat was done with you ... you could easily stop shooting...no point in wasting time and money when you already have good shots in camera.

Very recently...two weeks ago...we decided on a new idea...we shoot as much as we want of an animal...for a set fee ($35), email watermarked proofs 650x433 pixels (all automated process) to the clients, and they pick out the poses they want paper proofs (4x6), enlargements, or "web usage images"...and even printable digital files of at additional cost.

The problem with the breeder...perhaps not at the vets...with pet owners, but with breeders definitely, is that today they advertise on the web, and in many cases they fully expect to use the photos I take of their animals to advertise their cattery/kennel hobby business....others seem to feel it quite natural that we as photographers will turn over to them images that they can print themselves.....so...how to give the client what they want..and not kill your own profession/commercial work etc..

Initially I didn't want to give them anything digital..but lets face it..scanners are ubiquitous, and copyright can be ruined by publishing on the internet, and the client is not copyright savvy...nor can we really expect them to be, and if they are unsure of what to do their expedient is to remove your signature from the images so as not to get "caught"..and "in trouble"....and as photographers suing our clients hardly sounds like the way to build new business we really don't want to be placed in a position where we have to take the client to court....so what to do.

The present scenario...subject to momentary changes is as follows:

$35 up front for session.

$2 per 4x6 picked from emailed watermarked images.

$2 per image at 650x433 signed close to animal but NOT watermarked..for use on web sites etc...along with a provision that they have to keep copyright signature, and make a copyright claim on their page.

Sliding scale ...if they insist on "printable" images...1 image $40, 3 images $50, 6 images $60 each additional image from a single session $10...these are NOT provided in native format/size, but at the same size (actually the same files we use to print their 4x6 proofs---signed and all) .ie: 1200x1800 pixels and in jpeg format at quality 8 in PSCS. Full frame...so...they can print their own small prints etc..

So what have we done...they CAN print their own prints..if they want to...a big request we used to say no to....but they do not have a real quality image a publisher would be willing to work with. We have marked the images as best we can to convey our copyright in them, and we have required them to sign a contract that stipulates that they will only use the images for their personal usage. Is it perfect? no...but is it workable? we will see...

Worst case scenario...we get $35 and they never order anything...and they have watermarked 650x433 pixel images....average scenario....they buy 6 4x6 prints and we get $47 for the session...if they want to print their own they spend $100--150 per session on average...and never order a reprint..but as when we did lots of reprints...our reprint total was still 1/2 of our income...and we make that upfront in this scenario...that is OK...as long as we at least try to protect the images, and the publishing potential from beeing given away as well....

These fees are per animal...and so do not reflect horses...where quite often there is a "farm" fee as well, or instead of a per animal fee...and quite honestly when we do a home visit we do charge a "set-up" fee that is higher than the show session fees.

Sorry this is probably a bit disjointed, and I know I probably place a MUCH higher import on the publishing end than many "portrait" photographers may....but remember these animals ARE saleable to additional markets, and that people portrait photographers do not have that aspect at all with most of their clients due to "privacy" laws that govern the usage of recognizable "people"....but we animal specialists DO have this secondary market that can make or break the business....

I have photos in easily over 60 books, and I have lost count of the magazine issues.....it is a steady market if you build a name for yourself, and worth working towards....so I implore you to not give it away without considering its potential.

Richard

Wow, thanks for all the information and sharing.

Hi Richard,

I checked out your website - you certainly have a nice list of things that you have done. The one thing I did notice was that there were very few actual pictures of pets on your website. Most of what I saw were people getting awards.

I know that you mentioned above that you find a large portion of the business seems to focus around the person more than the actual subject (or more appropriately, the subject is ironically the human).

I am also surprised that your per shot rates are so affordable. How are you able to pay the rent if your prices have not been going up? I am also curious about how you are re-selling your photographs.

Thanks!
Tim

Also, Richard, can you tell us more about whom you are doing business with for stock agencies?

What format do you use to submit photographs? What types of photographs do you find sell best?

Thanks
Tim

First....I am an ignoramous when it comes to web maintenance, and have loused up my site more than once so I couldn't get back in for extended periods....so it isn't as up to date as it should be....

Second...my photos get stolen all the time from my clients sites and used by commercial sites..and I find half the time I am yelling at people to remove/pay for them...so I figure putting photos up on my site is just another way to get them ripped off. The problem is that I have sold images to some fairly major sites in the past...and there is as with music this perception that one can appropriate anything they find on the web...so I figure why put up lots of good photos in one place for them to rip off....I know what's the point...pictures are to be seen...but when you have sites in eastern Europe, and artists that are copying and making drawings from your work and then selling them to other potential buyers as "their original art"...you get annoyed after awhile. and are what you going to do? hire a lawyer?...for somebody in Bulgaria, or China?....to what purpose....so I don't post lots of photos of cats for that reason....why make it that much easier for them to steal your work....conundrum..but we are trying to make some money here as well...it is a problem. Post small w/watermark across the image...nobody likes to look at that....sign the pics? and they clone out the signature. I am hoping that the technology will mature to the point where you CAN protect the images sufficiently that people will not be able to steal them as much...and when that happens...I will post lots of photos...maybe it already is available, and I am just not computer literate enough to have figured it out....maybe you guys can enlighten me on this aspect....

The award photo links are...OLD...couple of years ago...but as I said..I'm not the best on the computer.

I look at books in used book stores write down the contact info....and rarely contact them, but I am approached by publishers quite often on projects...but that is also in keeping with the fact that I have been doing it for so long that there are a ton of photos out there with my name on them. Google "photo by Chanan" in various iterations...and you will see what I mean. If I ever have the time to initiate my own project...I might make some real money, but up to this time the publishers have almost always approached me when they have needed photos. One made the comment that they had been trying to locate me for about six months before they got a line on me....but hey...we do have an unlisted phone number, and don't advertise nor have a business telephone at all....I have always operated out of my home...low overhead that way...self promotion?! whats that?

Until digital .... I did all my own printing...20 inch Kreonite antique in the darkroom, roll paper easel, and 5 stick enlargers....I figure I personally have printed over a million prints....what social life?...though Nancy (my wife) has put up with me for going on 33 years.....

Digital has changed things...almost killed me a year ago...couldn't get it to work right, and was getting major frustrated....finally got it working pretty good..but still liked the old way with all the control inhouse..which I don't yet enjoy as I don't really like inkjet output yet...so...Fuji Frontier, and other RA4 type print processors is where it is at..and they still cost from about $115,000 and up...and that is too rich for my blood...I have tried the dye subs, and don't much like that output either..besides which it is darn expensive for materials...I have a Fuji 3500 across the desk from me now...haven't used it yet ....comes of doing all your own custom C printing for 25+ years....you get spoiled...and picky.

How do I sell, and to whom....well...I tried a few stock agencies a number of years ago...not sure I ever got all the slides back even..and never earned a dime from them....on the other hand dealing directly with publishers I have made lots of money....and even some with internet types....

In the publishing industry ... traditionally one sells or licenses an image for usage in a book of a certain title, and edition....if they change the name, rewrite the book, or bring it out in another language...you get paid again..or they go looking for new photos.

Enter the internet...so they want to license a photo...for how long? on what site? where? There isn't the permanence that there was with paper...there is virtually no end to the uses they may make in some respects...so how to deal with it?

I sold images for usage on a Pet Web site ..I think it was www.Pets.com or something like that...well a year later..they had gone belly up....and I get this letter from a lawyer saying that the remains of the business had been bought by another Pet.com site...and my license/contract is now with the new company...no extra money..and NOT the people I had originally sold the images to...not good I am thinking...so how often and how long is this going on until Microsoft ends up owning the images???...and suffice it to say that I would not have wanted to charge MS the same price as I had charged to that startup that didn't make it...the second one has since also gone belly up.....waiting for another lawyer letter now....

So another thing to enter into contracts....company dies..so does the right to use the images....none transferability or rights....if they insist...make them pay dearly for it...with luck they won't ask.

Well I have noticed lately...who hasn't...that everyone is trying to turn themselves into a utility....no sales at all...month/yearly licensing ONLY....what a great idea....if they save over what you would have charged them for a "sale" with no time limits on usage with a yearly fee.....you don't get as much up front...but you have the prospect of a continuing income...and you keep total control and ownership of the images...with no questions about if they have "bought" them or not...because if they haven't paid you this year...guess what..they owe you some money...simpler determination of rights..and it circumvents the Dead dot com syndrome as related above...

The other area that we a photogs are hurting is the "cheapening" of the value of the images we make because of the advent of digital cameras....anybody can make an image with enough tries and good enough equipment..and a little luck..and many are so honored to be "used", published...that they don't even charge for the usage of their stuff....or they don't have a clue how much they should charge...so they don't at all....this further degrades the market..and only hurts everyone's prospects for making any money...it also account for why I am so informative with you guys....I would rather have you understand the what/how/why/how much, than have you slit everybodies throats in an effort to see your work in print....I do have bills to pay...and this is how I do it. I don't mind competing with people on a level playing field..but if you guys give it away....I just don't want to go there.

I have read some threads on DPreview about how good an outfit called Istock.com is ....they pay a whooping $1 or less to you the photographer for every image they "sell" for you....so...how you gonna compete with that and make a buck? I think the yearly thing is the answer...if the buyer is paying say $3 per image....they get ONE image...if you license them to use up to say 12 images of yours on their site...at a time....for a fixed say....$50 per year even...it costs them more..so why would they bother?...because you are going to let them rotate different images over that time period....just ONLY 12 different images at a time...what does this do...it allows them to change their site...a static site is BORING...if they buy a picture they then use that image forever...boring...or have to buy others down the line....this way...they are buying a service and variety that even the CHEAP stock agency can't give them...and the photographer is making a long term income from his photos....and hopefully cutting out the middle man...who in the case of these cheap undercutting agencies is making the lion's share of the income from the images as it now stands....

I was approached today with a publisher who had seen a particular shot I did in 2004...they had the image...but no valid file number...I told them $100 for this particular usage....spent an hour or so going through pics from last year...didn't find this image yet...and get their return email saying "oh we are so poor, and can only budget $30"....So...lets see...another couple of hours of research probably to run down this image....then send it to them..then get a request for billing...if they bother to let me know that they really used it...and then the time to write a bill...or two until they finally get around to paying me the $30....rebates are less trouble..and we know how bad they are. I told her to take a flying hike...if they were using 50 images I might have dealt down, but for a single image...I think not. We decided long ago that out bottom was $50...anything less than that isn't worth the time you are going to put into the paperwork for the job..don't even talk about the value of the image you are allowing them to use.....and that is the rock bottom..and is probably too low at that.

I have 20,000 slides cataloged, and about 500,000 negs...of which about 30,000 are scanned. I have now about 50,000 digital captures from the past two years or so as well...6--8 meg cameras. I have been trying to catalog, and set up CDs for submissions to publishers divided by breed, color, backgrounds....about 20,000 images per CD...will probably go to DV soon on these...these are small images...about 15-20k ea....just enough to get a feel for the image..the problem is it is still too much for most people to absorb..I need to cull it more...time another project..too much to do...you can only look at so many photos of the same subject before they all begin looking the same....after 5000 images most people go GA-GA....

I shoot breed shots which show the defining aspects of the breed....they are formals...and best lend themselves to texts or books specifically aimed at people interested in the breeds of cats....so it is a somewhat limited market...there is a need for environmentals but the vast majority of what I do/have..is formal solid colored drapes...

Editors have usually no idea what the cat breeds are...I think they often have never seen a cat....so they either pick really weird poses if left to their own devices...or you have to lead them through to the best images for each particular breed...and that comes from having done it for so long that I do pretty much know the breeds by now..and what they want in each breed, and so what images are best for each breed..and that varies by the breed..some are short, chunky and broad...some a lithe, slinky, skinny and long...some have/want Big ears, some small tiny ones....short tails, or long, even coloration, or very distinct stripes or spots....I have been around cats for a long time..my mother bred them what I was a kid...and I have been photographing them at shows for 28 years...so I kind of know what the different breeds need..

Last two years they have gotten away from slides (liability issues) and gone to FTP..so lately most submissions are digital low res for selection....high res FTP for usage....anywhere in the world. I deal with publishers in Australia, Japan, Spain, Brazil, Italy, England, France, USA, Singapore, China, Korea, and The Netherlands.

One question asked was how to pay the rent...well I made the choice early on to shoot one of the poorer animals....and I think I charge what the market will bear..I wish it was more. But with the subsidy of publishing...so far we have been OK..not rich...but OK... I have to travel alot to get to different clients all over the world in order to have that volume...and I don't really welcome competition...as I would like to have the clients starving for photos when I walk in the door...but the down side is ... I have a lot of labor to get out those images...and right now I need to get to work...as I have a show tomorrow morning...and still work to do on the last three shows....

Richard

"Editors have usually no idea what the cat breeds are...I think they often have never seen a cat...."

They should hang out at DPREview...tons of cats.

Anyway, thanks for the message. I think that the one thing that your posts bring out is just how much work it takes to make this business affordable. My guess is that you will be in business for as long as you want to be.

Many wedding photographers have been anxious about the addition of digital photographers into the mix. My gut tells me that the bulk of new comers wind up going broke relatively early and the professionals stay in business just as they did before. Personally, the one area I have seen changes in wedding photography has been in after-wedding sales. The digital camera has pretty much eliminated most of them.

Anyway, I find it interesting how you are making your own rates for licensing of your images. Have you considered joining a stock alliance to find out what the going rates for images are?

-James

I am unfamilliar with the term stock alliance...though it sounds intriguing....can you elaborate on how one differs from an agency, and what advantages they might have over independent efforts? I know that I have been batting in the dark on rates...and that today with traditional agencies existing or trying to along side really cheap options such as "istock"....that rates seem to be all over the board from Xx$1000s to $1--3 per image....for all sorts of different usage types....

Also intriguing is the fact that some agencies are requiring HUGE digital image formats ...I guess in order to weed out the tons of amateurs from the true professionals....seems a bit arbirary given the fact that I think Sports Illustrated, and National Geographic reputedly began using digital files as early as the 30D/1D generation of cameras...not perhaps a lot...but at least a little bit.

I would honestly think anything 6 meg and above in a APS or larger sensor size....would suffice for publishing most of the time....but some (Alarmy among them) seem to be requiring 1Ds, n14 and above as entry level requirements....a bit reough as I think many pros are with me on the current crop of 6--8 meg devices being plenty for most uses....now if the requirement was for 16 or 32 bit capture....that would be something else again....but at present I am unaware of anything other than the H1 with a Creo back or similar that offers even 16 bit....and at $36k or so...this is out of my range..also not practical for a lot of work.

Here is a collage from some of my favorite shots from this past weekend..