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Noise Dilemma #8501
05/20/07 02:08 PM
05/20/07 02:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
glamson Offline OP
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glamson  Offline OP
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Donner Summit, CA
It's the age old dilemma, speed vs quality. In the film days it was "grain". In the digital age it's "noise". One of my favorite shooting subjects is animals in action and the trick is to freeze that action into an interesting photographic image.

I shoot most of my critters with a Nikon D200 and a Sigma 100-300 f/4 lens. I have found that in order to get the shutter speed (1/500 or better) to freeze the action and enough DOF to get things in focus, I use settings in the range of 1/800sec, f/6.3-8, and an ISO of 400. The dilemma comes in post processing (I shoot only raw images) when I usually have to crop for composition, adjust exposure and saturation, and sharpen. At ISO400, there is some noise and depending on how much of crop is necessary, this can get to be a bit of a problem. I have tried all the noise reduction programs and have settled on Neat Image which works really well as a plugin.

My problem is that often times I'm not sure whether I like the image better with noise reduction (NR) or with the "noise". So, I'm hoping I can get some opinions here on the following images of a hunting GBH. The first set are the whole image with and without NR. The second set are the 100% crops. I'd just like to get some feed back on which whole image you like better and why (It's OK if you really don't see much difference, it is subtle). Now I know that the web is not the best display method for judging these kinds of things, but it's all we have. Thanks for your feedback.

Native image (no NR)

Image with NR


Here are the 100% crops in which the NR effects are more visible.
Native

With NR

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: glamson] #8502
05/20/07 09:54 PM
05/20/07 09:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
North Carolina
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Dale Forrest Offline
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Dale Forrest  Offline
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Hi George,

I like the second image on the close up, it seems to smooth out the edges etc. I try to adjust my images so that they appeal to my customers and they always seem to like what I do to them. A lot of photographers are always trying to get the sharpest image possible on the overall frame, but I like to make sure that the area important to me is in focus and everything else can become obscure.

I have been using an older nikon 400mm 5.6 with my D200, but would like to upgrade to a better lens. How do you like the Sigma 100-300? I have read good reports on that lens.

Thanks,
Dale

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: glamson] #8503
05/20/07 10:11 PM
05/20/07 10:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
GroovyGeek Offline
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GroovyGeek  Offline
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You can clearly see the effects of NI in the 100% crops. The noise in the water behind the head of the bird is gone, and so is the noise on the gray feathers on its neck and in the lower left corner of the image. However, not unexpectedly the detail in the brown feathers on the left side of the image and in the upper right corner is gone. IMO this is not objectionable, because the removal of the noise in the feathers on the lower part of the neck makes for a much more appealing look due to softening of the harshness. The neck is a primary area of focus for the image, and you have done a good job of taking care of noise there in a pleasing way. Perhaps you are a bit lucky because the fish itself has no particular detail. If it did, the lack for sharpness from the de-noising could have been problematic.

Having said that, there is no reason to de-noise the whole image. You can either apply NI selectively to parts of the image selected with the lasso tool, or you can put the de-noised image in a separate layer, and then use a layer mask to expose the de-noised parts you want.

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: Dale Forrest] #8504
05/21/07 12:46 AM
05/21/07 12:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
glamson Offline OP
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glamson  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
Quote:

Hi George,

I like the second image on the close up, it seems to smooth out the edges etc. I try to adjust my images so that they appeal to my customers and they always seem to like what I do to them. A lot of photographers are always trying to get the sharpest image possible on the overall frame, but I like to make sure that the area important to me is in focus and everything else can become obscure.

I have been using an older nikon 400mm 5.6 with my D200, but would like to upgrade to a better lens. How do you like the Sigma 100-300? I have read good reports on that lens.

Thanks,
Dale




Dale,

Thanks for the feedback. I have to admit that I really go back and forth on the NR. Sometimes I like the "smoother" look of the image with NR (more of a Canon look) and other times I find myself liking the noiser image with more detail. I guess in a way this post is rhetorical, but I am interested to see what others think. I agree about having the area of interest in focus while letting other parts of the image blur. I've found that for animal action shots, it is critical that the head and eyes are in focus. In this image I had the AF sensor on the head. The wings were flapping and even at 1/640" it didn't freeze them totally.

I love the Sigma lens. It is very sharp in its sweetspot, f5.6-8 and the HSM is very fast and accurate. The GBH in this shot was actually moving pretty fast right towards me and the AF locked on nicely and stayed with him (using AFC). I also like that the lens has internal focus so it doesn't change it's length. The only down side is that it is a bit of a beast but it can be handheld as this image attests. I really like having the zoom capability over a fixed focal length. Action shots really require focal length flexibility.

George

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: glamson] #8505
05/21/07 12:40 PM
05/21/07 12:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Colorado, USA
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Buddy Thomason Offline
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Colorado, USA
I like the 2nd full image, but only because NR has enhanced the subject/background separation. I suspect you're not getting the most out of your NR program in terms of fine-tuning capability. I use Noise Ninja and found that, over time and with extensive use, I finally figured out how to make it do what I wanted. But I had to abandon any notion of 'automatic' noise reduction. It's a hands on, fine tuning process to get good results. There are at least six variables (2 each in contrast, strength of NR, and smoothness) plus sharpening.

However the biggest advance I experienced in learning how to do NR was when I learned that NR in one channel only, usually the blue channel, often yields far superior results - since, as fate would have it, most noise will be found (in the world of current digital sensors) in that channel.

So, in Photoshop CS2 I use the Noise Ninja plug-in first thing after RAW conversion. Well, not exactlly first - first I make a duplicate layer, zoom to 100%, switch to channels, select R, G and B one at a time and confirm which channel (95 out of 100 it's blue) has the noise.

Since I've downloaded Noise Ninja's camera profiles, the program looks at my image and chooses the appropriate profile which then has its effect. I toggle before and after with each change and I run through the variables listed above. When I'm done I activate the R and G channels to confirm if I like the result, or not. Often I wind up converting the layer in which I applied NR using the PS luminosity filter and reduce opacity to anywhere between 50 and 90% depending.

Another key trick I learned is that reducing the NR effect to something less than what my eye tells me is enough will allow me to sharpen the image later without creating more problems.

And finally, don't forget that you can create a new layer with a slight gaussian blur, de-sellect your subject, tune the opacity of your blur layer, then use the sharpening brush tool to selectively sharpen aspects of your subject it its layer (for birds - the eyes, some of the feathers, the beak etc.), flatten the layers... and never even have to use noise reduction!

Just a few thoughts that I hope are helpful. Great picture, by the way!

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: GroovyGeek] #8506
05/22/07 11:05 AM
05/22/07 11:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
glamson Offline OP
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glamson  Offline OP
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Donner Summit, CA
Boyan,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with everything you say here. I guess like most of life, the noise question is an issue of trade-offs. What I find interesting about myself is that sometimes I like the noise and sometimes I don't. I can't seem to decide from session to session which way to go.

Thanks also for the comments about the application of differential noise reduction. I actually use layer masks quite often to apply the noise reduction to just certain areas. This is a great technique and does solve some of the dilemma in many cases. I guess the question I still have is which looks "better" in a whole image. I didn't even get into the whole issue of noise and printing (can't really share prints on the web).

Thanks again.

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: glamson] #8507
05/22/07 01:17 PM
05/22/07 01:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Colorado, USA
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Buddy Thomason Offline
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Buddy Thomason  Offline
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Colorado, USA
I think you're asking yourself and going back and forth because, though smoother and more appealing in that way, the 2nd image has a certain amount of 'posterization' or uniformity in smaller areas of contrast and color that doesn't look quite right. If that were'nt there but still the noise had been reduced (without sacrificing detail), that would be better, right? And you wouldn't be trying to decide which you liked better. Ideally, noise reduction done right does exactly that.

Re: Noise Dilemma [Re: Buddy Thomason] #8508
05/23/07 10:58 AM
05/23/07 10:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
glamson Offline OP
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glamson  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2006
Donner Summit, CA
Quote:

I think you're asking yourself and going back and forth because, though smoother and more appealing in that way, the 2nd image has a certain amount of 'posterization' or uniformity in smaller areas of contrast and color that doesn't look quite right. If that were'nt there but still the noise had been reduced (without sacrificing detail), that would be better, right? And you wouldn't be trying to decide which you liked better. Ideally, noise reduction done right does exactly that.




Buddy,

Yes you are exactly right. I guess what I really want is a camera that allows me to shoot at any ISO sensitivity I need, but still gives ISO100 images. Maybe someday.

Given that the laws of physics haven't been beaten yet by the sensor makers, I guess the next best solution is a NR technique that does just what you describe, remove the noise without any artefacts. Until then I will continue to make due with the tools at hand. I have found the more I fiddle with this stuff, the better I'm getting at it. Like all of us, I will just have to keep at it.

And of course the feedback I get from everyone helps. Thanks.


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